By - mattarsh
Game 3 post game Windhorst immediately brought up Lebron in some comparison to Steph's underperforming teammates and how LeBrons dealt with that for years
...and Zach's like, "are we really talking about LeBron right now?"
He did the exact same thing last night and Lowe called him out again… lol
Windy brought up LeBron too to say that Steph’s the first player in the finals to get 40/10 since LeBron, which is wrong Giannis had 50/14 game 6.
How you gonna lead off the show bringing that up when It ain’t even right lol
yeah lol i didn’t remember giannis’s numbers for the game but i immediately thought no way he didn’t get 10+ rebounds in his 50 piece in game 6
Giannis dropped 40/10 3 times last finals 💀💀
Yeah but Lebron doesn’t play for the Bucks or the Suns so that series didn’t count
Oh fuck me he’s good
Jimmy butler did it in 2020 and so did lebron. Unless even nba talking heads know the bubble doesn’t count cuz then W that they didn’t say that
How? It accomplishes goal of mentioning LeBron.
The stat he was looking for also involved age of the players but he botched it
Giannis had 3 games over that last finals, Butler had a 40/10+ game after LeBron in the same finals...
Not only that, his stat was wrong. Giannis dropped 40/10 3 times last year.
Butler dropped it vs Lebron in the same finals. Dude is an idiot.
He's so nakedly fraudulent lol, just doesn't put any work in to better understand the game. Dude could literally just listen to Lowe Post and Dunc'd On for a month at the bare minimum.
I just saw a post on the front page about it. Lol Lowe has great patience to deal with him it feels like
He could also just, not have him on the show though.
PLEASE less Windy more Arnovitz/Beck
What up beck! Howard is easily his best guest and the one Zach seems to enjoy talking to the most.
As long as lowe stays at ESPN, he has to have all the other ESPN dipshits on his show whether he likes it or not. I hope he leaves when his contract is up, although theyd be crazy not to back up the brinks truck at his house (which I suspect they may have done already)
I refuse to listen to Zach Lowes podcasts if there are shitty espn personalities on there. Lowe himself is fine, but I think he's a better writer than Podcaster tbh
He doesn't have that pushback and callout awfulness gene.
No dawg in em
It doesn't help that Lowe tries way too hard to be funny and screams way too much on his pod. I liked his podcast way more when he wasn't trying to be a personality.
better writer than podcaster? that's bill simmons' music!
I haven’t listened to that pod, but I can hear Zach’s voice saying that with incredulity.
And I can see Windhorst’s 20 chins jiggling
There honestly sounded like there was a little bit of tension between the two throughout the podcast
I noticed this too! It’s like they genuinely don’t like each other... I liked when Windy tried criticizing Kerr and the Zach called out “hey coach” immediately after as Kerr walked by 😂
Yeah I've noticed that while Lowe will criticize nba players/coaches he is \*very\* selective about when he is and is usually as diplomatic and complementary as possible. So it makes sense that he would take a dig at someone who is dragging Kerr's performance willy-nilly.
I think the difference is mostly that Lowe acknowledges that these coaches are the best in the world at their jobs and essentially basketball geniuses. So he frames his legitimate criticisms within that context.
Meanwhile, Windhorst acts like they are bozos operating at his same surface level knowledge.
Lowe can be a feisty guy and it's appreciated.
I’d be fiesty too if if someone tanked my podcast.
This is reddit, so I'm commenting without listening to the source podcast, and this is /r/NBA, so I'm going to assume you mean uncomfortable homoerotic sexual tension
I got the podcast notification. Turned it on during a drive to work and I was completely stunned that Windy literally FIRST statement is about Lebron and then Lowe calls it out and Windy acts like it’s completely normal. I haven’t had to listen to Windy for years but some things never change. Dick riding Lebron for an entire career.
Dick riding lebron is his career
It’s big business.
We ain't in the objective journalism business. We in the LeBron James dick ridin' business. And cousin, business is a-boomin'
Let’s put this in context…
Rich Paul rode LeBron’s dick all the way to Adele’s vagina.
Wouldn’t you ride his dick too and test your luck?
Adele is a 5-6 at best nothing to brag about
Yeah I listened to the one after Game 3 and started listening to this one and immediately switched to a different podcast after hearing him bring up Lebron within the first minute. He's just not interesting to listen to for me...would rather just listen to Lowe's thoughts
I only really know Windhorst as the guy who play by plays Lebron’s life. I don’t watch ESPN anymore but does he do more now?
No. Still just Lebron's personal ESPN liaison.
He also said this is the first time Steph’s had to do this as if the 2019 finals or any number of other playoff series haven’t happened. Turned it off after that.
To be fair, Jeff van Gundy also said it on the broadcast
Ery well put
Well he opened with Lebron in the game 4 pod. He quite literally says Lebron 3 times in the opening 8 sentences.
Windy basically owes everything to LeBron
Sports media is crazy because windy turned became a fixture on espn by being the ultimate lebron dickrider
Windy is a tough listen. Zach should really just go solo on these reaction pods.
Arguably Zachs one flaw to me is his profound interest and love for his fellow sports reporters. He wants to celebrate them, banter with them, and talk about their lives and sometimes it hurts his product - bc honestly who cares, I’m here for the hoops.
That said I think it shows what a warm guy Zach is and it makes me like him as a person, even if i am bored by it.
Nah dude the time Lowe had Windhorst on his pod and he admitted he turns off his lights when trick or treaters Come was an all time moment
This shit had me dead Zach’s reaction was gold
100%. He invites these hot take morons onto his show and tries to breakdown schemes with them. He tried to get Friedell to talk about the Warriors offensive strategies one time and it was clear Friedell didn’t know anything other than Steph was good.
Freidell is such a fuckin meatball.
Absolutely love Bulls fans solidarity on the Friedell issue. I thought I might be alone, but you guys had to deal with it too.
Freidell must be one heck of a hang, because he's such a basketball hack
I just don't understand these people.
Like, Windhorst admits he's not great at Xs and Os, and I think he himself has even pointed out that when he's talking with Zach Lowe it's a little embarassing.
Like... all this stuff is public knowledge, and he has access to lots of people who will happily go through it with him. It's not like he's being asked to get an MBA.
I love listening to Zach Lowe. It's so educational. But I'm sure a lot of this is still surface level stuff, but it's not my career to understand this stuff. It is for Windhorst.
I will say regardless of my more friendly response above, I was bitterly disappointed that after a classic game 4 I get Windy blowin hot air instead of some real Zach stuff. Painful.
There is absolutely no fuckin reason that people paid to talk about the NBA shouldn’t be Ph.D’s on the sport. It’s literally all that you do. I learned this shit while working a 9-5 and reading blogposts. What the fuck do these idiots spend all day doing???
His podcasts with Arnovitz, Beck and obviously Bill Simmons are a pretty good listen. I guess ones with JVG too. I remember him doing one with Kevin O'Conner too.
Agreed. I have a tough time listening to Lowe podcasts with other journalists... they're pretty bad, and a lot of the time the journalists love jerking themselves off about things they know, their takes, or their stories. I like when Zach is talking to players or other media people that are a bit more nuanced, or Simmons because they play off each other so well.
Personally feel the best ones are with a van gundy and arnovitz. The Doris Burke one was ok
MacMahon has become a solid guest, too. His kinda blue-collar, folksy approach is a nice pairing with Zach’s very Ivy League analytics approach.
I really like Zach with Van Gundy. The problem with Windhorst is he is much more of an inside info guy on what's going on inside team's front offices or with players in the locker room. He can't keep up with Zach in terms of analysis. Zach is better with someone who knows more about the game.
Beck is good too. I actually like Kevin Pelton as well.
Kevin Arnovitz is the worst offender of this, the guy just loves hearing himself talk, last time he went on the pod he said something like “warriors punish you for good decisions” and got a wow from Lowe, and he couldn’t stop bringing it up later on
I dunno, drunk Lowe, Nichols and Beck is a fun pod to listen back in the day
It wasn't like this before he joined espn if iirc. He has a lot more narrative take dudes on since he joined and it just sucks, they get exposed every time they are on.
I would assume its a mandate from his employer. Zach Lowe doesn't need the hoop collective crossover, the hoop collective wants to try and leech viewers from the more successful pod. Or Tim Bontemps, he gets to go on there and talk over Zach like a fool for forty minutes because ESPN wants increased name recognition and attention drawn to their 'talent'. Now the issue of course is a lot of these people may be skilled in one area but terrible at speaking on the game of basketball; but thats not going to stop them from forcing their guests onto his show.
All I can say is fuck Tim Bontemps! Worst guest of all time receently.
Preach. Only Lowe pod I've started listening to then voluntarily turned off to listen to other things. At least if Windhorst is vague and unentertaining, there's a back and forth, your turn my turn sort of deal. Like Windhorst is a professional that knows how to speak. Bontemps is like some dude hopped on a discord call and won't shut up. I can't imagine a more grating combination than someone who absolutely has to be heard, but has absolutely nothing of substance to say.
He actually had a 30 min pod after the him/Windy pod post game 3 where he went all Lowe-y by himself but for some reason didn't do the same after game 4.
Windy has become a characature of himself. That fact that he started the pod off inserting LeBron into the discussion was pathetic.
That’s why I enjoy windy’s podcasts on Thursdays because both Tims (MacMahon and Bontemps) just dunk on him repeatedly.
except one Tim is funny and the other is every bad stereotype of a nerd without the intelligence.
I think the dynamic still plays out lol. Funny guy, nerdy guy and a host that is full of himself going at it for an hour ostensibly about basketball. I’m at least entertained.
oh I'm definitely entertained. I need bontemps because I need a villain. I'm rooting against the celtics in a way because i want him to eat crow. I think McMahon and Lowe would make a great weekly pod.
bontemps calling windhorst a jackass is an all-timer.
I can’t stand bontemps but enjoy those shows
As meaty and cheesy as Windhorst is, I think you mean caricature.
As much of a character as you are I think you thought they wrote *charcuterie*
I mean Lowe is one of the best analysts in the game. Windy is a reporter lol
Reminds me of people who get all upset about what Bill Simmons and Russillo say. They’re just die hard NBA fans talking hoops, it’s not serious.
Windy is also not funny or entertaining tho lol
thats my big problem with him. hes not funny or entertaining and i also don't value his analysis. i can't say that about any other talking head its gotta be one or the other.
That's the problem
ya dude has zero charisma. he does have a really good sense for narratives though. his takes while annoying are measured and connected. the narratives he pushes are a lot of times correct. but if you have zero interest in narratives he really has nothing to offer.
His career was made off of coming out at the exact same time as LeBron and following him like a little duckling follows a stoned teenager smoking at a lake
He has his moments tbh but he’s a hack for the most part
When Simmons actually tries to get serious and isn't making hot takes, and isn't talking about the Celtics, you can tell he clearly knows his stuff.
I like Simmons.
I read almost every r/nba reply in his voice.
You’re right in simmons, but I don’t know anybody in nba media that watches as many games as russillo, and you can actually tell in his analysis. He knows what he’s talking about. Calling him just a die hard is way off base
Lowe watches more because he's only basketball
ya he comes off as arrogant but he know his shit.
He didn’t sacrifice having friends and family to be humble pal.
Condescending but a lot of the NBA media doesn’t care about basketball
Wait I can’t tell if this is sarcastic or not. Everyone on r/billsimmons makes fun of Russillo for constantly mentioning how he’s always watching games but never actually giving any real analysis.
This is just like… something Russillo himself says lol. How do you know how many games he or anyone else watches? I’ll give you this, he does talk about how many games he watches a lot.
You may as well also say, I don’t know anyone in nba media who goes to the gym as often as Russillo.
I like Simmons because it feels like talking hoops with friends. None of my friends watch hoops anymore.
Real talk, I was shocked to see so much Simmons hate on this sub. He's a Boston homer, so what? He's pretty apparent about it.
He’s been pretty fair in his praises/critiques of his team. He does tend to focus too much time talking about them but that is his right to do so. It beats the 24/7 talk about the Lakers/Lebron on ESPN.
The thing is, Russillo and Simmons openly admit their biases towards players and teams and are more jovial about it.
Windy tries to pretend that he's objective and fails at it.
I mean to be fair, that’s how they’re interpreted by many fans of the pod but they think higher of themselves than that. Russillo might actually be the most pretentious and pompous “analyst.” Always going on about how much he watches, how many notes he takes, what takes come from smart viewers and dumb ones. It really comes out when he’s hating on harden
he describes his approach to sports podcasting like he's the last 'real po-lice' in his precinct doing old school by the books detective work.
Russillo’s desire for everyone to think he’s cool and smart is so insufferable.
He’s so bald, but I like him.
Probably doesn’t get laid.
i actually like this about him. reminds me of that annoying friend we all love in small doses.
I mean I’d prefer someone acknowledging all the notes they take then the things said in this subreddit. I agree that he’s pretentious to a a degree, but he puts in more effort than someone more recognizable like Windy or Nick Wright.
That’s a very low bar
I agree. But the low bar people mentioned above are more recognized and successful commercially than people who are putting more effort in.
I actually like simmons and russillo, I just think they have an inflated view of their analysis. when it comes down to it, their comments will be something like “the klay thing” or “the grant williams piece” without any real understanding of the game on a deeper level
God I hate Russillo
At some point that shit is supposed to rub off if you have half a fucking brain. How can windy be around some of the best basketball analysts in the world for decades and still not know enough shit about basketball to have a conversation with someone like Lowe who already does a good job dumbing stuff down to his guests. It's insane.
Windy is better for pulse of the league reporting and Lowe is better for analysis of the mechanics of the game although he also does the former.
TBF Zach makes most people look like this. Guy is the analyst GOAT.
I think it really speaks to their backgrounds.
Yeah, they're basically at opposite ends of when is comes to it. Windy has said countless times that he doesn't try to be analytical because he's so bad at it
Except he still ends up talking out of his ass all the time. He was shitting on Kerr’s rotations and saying he hated starting Porter because he doesn’t understand Warriors needed better spacing to score against the two big lineup that GSW starts.
Does Wind Horse have a background in being a stupid asshole?
His old country name was actually Windfrömhorse before they immigrated to the US
Its a good change, a good change.
Windhorst came to prominence riding LeBron’s coattails. He went to the same high school as Lebron (before he got there) and his mom was LeBron’s teacher. Windhorst was writing for a local Akron paper covering high school basketball when LeBron was in high school, was the Cav’s beat writer the entire time Lebron was on the cavs, and he moved to Miami to cover the heat when Lebron switched teams.
Lol I️ can get on board with that assessment considering he’s basically come on the scene to lead LeKing’s propaganda division
I generally don't listen to people who have never played the sport.
But when you compare Lowe and Windy, you can see that Windy just got a journalism degree from Kent and followed LeBron around.
Lowe graduated from Dartmouth, 2 degrees, criminal justice journalist all before becoming a sports writer.
So I trust he has at least a decent head on his shoulders.
Lowe seems to be more interested in the minutiae of the NBA like play calling and hard stats while Windhorst seems to be more interested in the NBA rumors and breaking news like trades or if someone is going to test FA
I mean, Lowe does that too and is better at it than Windhorst because he actually has an understanding of the game and how front offices work.
Lowe can at least use stats and embedd them into the right context to give his analysis depth.
He is quite knowledgeable, watches a lot of games and picks stuff up most of these talking heads don't even (want to) see.
Lowe brought up screen navigation in the post-game 3 podcast they did together and Windhorst said something like "we don't talk about screen navigation on the Hoop Collective". Hoop Collective is just three narrative analysts talking.
god bontemps is the worst. i actually really enjoy McMahon and find windy tolerable. i like narratives when they are well researched and backed up with stats/film or when they are funny. McMahon is funny imo.
MacMahon is great and usually just fine in regards to actual in game stuff. Always enjoy when he’s on The Lowe Post. Probably my favorite guest. Bontemps and Windy together make The Hoop Collective unlistenable for me.
I fucking hate bontemps lol.
he mentioned a lot of times how he is not an analyst only a reporter, and that he is not as smart as others. funny how people are upset that he doesnt have the knowledge as in this case lowe.
Then he shouldn't be on a podcast analyzing basketball games. Stick to sportscenter where all he has to do is report on what Lebron ate for breakfast that day
ok i will tell him this.
Windhorst is basically the average r/nba commenter. Didn’t watch the game but his opinion must be heard
Windhorst is only qualified to analyze dumbshit minutiae about LeBron’s current state of mind.
Or just like, repeat Klutch’s narratives about him.
Remember in ‘16 or ‘17 Windy had a breathless report about how LeBron was so smart that he was able to “save his energy on the defensive end”?
Dude is so bought-in on the LeBron train that he straight up tried to rebrand defensive apathy as this positive, strategic move.
Lowe is the best though.
Does Windhorst play sports?
Checks notes… no
have you never seen him?
well you see, Zach Lowe is smart, and Windhorst is a blowhard newspaper guy who backed into covering Lebron after he was drafted and then stuck around on ESPN.
Windy’s whole “Steph has been good not great” shit pisses me the fuck off. Steph has been sublime the entire finals, scoring at a high rate with high efficiency against one of the best defenses we’ve seen in years. How he constantly tries to diminish a player’s achievements (other than Lebron) is fucking annoying.
Plus, I thought Lebron stopped talking to him years ago. What’s the point of him anymore?
I don’t think they like each other lol
This is what Draymond calls the "old media". There are quite a lot of these reporters who don't really understand the game.
They work on getting connections within teams to get info and break stories and they build narratives based on their limited level of game knowledge, which is about the same as a casual fan.
It's ok to have some of that, just don't ask them about the nuances of the game and stop letting them vote for awards like FVMP.
Well one of them got where they’re at by way of their analysis and the other is there through attaching themselves to and reporting about Lebron James.
Windhorst should grow a neck beard.
Would have to grow a neck first
Bryan Windhorst is LeBron’s bitch and I won’t be shocked if he’s under his payroll.
His job is to feed every narrative to go into LeBron’s way and has been doing that since ESPN created Heat Check on their website during the Heatles era.
Windy is pretty terrible. I can’t stand his voice. He also just seems to go for the sweeping take analysis rather than talking specifics.
On my analysis there i used the same depth as windy does.
that's cuz windhorst sucks at everything he does with basketball. only reason he has a job is that he was connected to Lebron early
i hate brian and i really wanna body shame him but i gotta hold it 😂
Only Windhorst can find a way to shit on Steph after watching that game. Even Nick Wright and Skip Bayless aren't this bad
What did he say? I did notice him struggling a fair amount more on defense than usual, and he had that one lazy pass in the 2nd half that got picked off, but that's about it I can think of.
First 40/10 finals game since Lebron and how he has to be great like that to win the series. The last part might be true to some degree, but Giannis last year had a 50/10 game...
Didn’t listen to the pod but if that’s the extent of it, how is that shitting on Steph at all? Is he not comparing him to Lebron and then saying the rest of the team is playing like shit?
well he is right, 50/10 is not a 40/10
Windhorsts ruins podcasts for me tbh
Windhorsts only skill was having info on lebron quicker than anyone. They gave him a full time job based on that and of course he still can’t do anything else
Windhorst is okay at his job because it’s not about game analysis. His entire schtick is to provide stories about x or y character in the league. He doesn’t have to be smart about the game to do what he’s good at.
I’m annoyed by how eager he is to interrupt. It’s like he takes in a gigantic breath while Zach is talking and has to let it out 2/3rds of the way through Zach’s sentence.
Well LePaycheck ain’t playing what do you expect
I agree. I also think people on reddit just get super impressed by people who are able to dig up stats, no disrespect to Zach. The sub leans very heavily into being "intellectual" basketball fans.
digging up stats is like 15% of what Zach does.
Stats themselves are stupidly easy to find its understanding and applying them that means anything.
Also fuck advanced stats.
I think advanced stats are a nice tool, but too many people treat them as gospel and don’t bother to consider any kind of nuance or context.
I can’t stand that dude. Why you have to bring up Lebron 30seconds in to the pod?
Gotta ride with Windy for the Deal Zone. Sixers fans knows what’s up
> On the post game 4 pod, Brian Windhorsts sounds like someone who literally just pulled up the box score stats and builds narratives around them.
so he a redditor
Windhorst is still by far my least favourite NBA talking head.
Windhorst is a clown, I don’t understand what value he brings to anything
Honestly I’m listening to it now and I had this same thought a few minutes ago.
It's almost like Windhorst is a reporter and Lowe is an analyst, OP.
I’ve always thought windhorst analysis of basketball is underwhelming.
Windy dont know ball
thats the difference
I hate these fat guys that never played ball analyzing this sport.
That Lowe post was painful to listen to cause of Windy
ESPN sets a lot of these guys up to fail by spreading them so thin. No doubt it goes both ways, but most of these guys would be a lot better at their jobs if they only had to do a single 1 hour radio/TV show per day rather than 8 different things.
This thread is why nba circle jerk exists.
I understand this is nephew of me but I was watching him last night and thought I could do what he does just as well if not better.
I can’t stand zach lowe but I listen to his show because it’s really good lol
I still like windy and his podcast a lot.
Windy hitting snacks and massive diet drinks, too busy feeding to pay close attention
Smh. I can guarantee you there’s some teen in America that took their life today over people telling them shit like that to bring them down. If you’re not smart enough to target what he said and instead have to resort to targeting what he looks like, keep your mouth shut.
Love me some windhorse
Brian Windhorst is a fat slob and Im tired of seeing and hearing about him.
What does his weight have to do with anything dude. You're just being needlessly mean for no reason and theirs a 50 percent chance you ain't some fit dude either
Windhorst is terrible but r/nba loves zach lowe because he represents what r/nba thinks they are - nerdy guy who never played basketball at a competitive level and is somehow knowledgeable about the game because of "advanced stats".
If you listen to his podcast all he does is repeat a bunch random obscure stats from cleaningtheglass and use random adjectives like frisky and shifty
anyone who thinks Lowe is knowledgeable because of advanced stats isn't paying attention. dude grinds tape and takes notes. he has been doing this for like 15 years and has tens of thousands of hours of game film watched. if you actually listen to his podcast he calls out specific plays all the time. he discusses scheme and matchups then backs them up with specific examples and yes, stats, both box score and advanced.
i have lost track of the amount of times Zach has anticipated an adjustment. he sees a lot of the same things that the best coaches in the league see.
No that would be Kevin O'Connor
Let’s play ball then please.
What you said is the truth. Zack Lowe is r/nba Jesus because they never played basketball and jerk off to advanced stats.
Hilarious how these clowns downvotes him.
name a better mainstream analyst